>> republicans are in a shocking amount of disarray right now. >> you mean old republicans will ruin christmas. >> what they're talking about is raising revenues and not tax rates. >> republicans have stepped out of our comfort zone. >> there are very few republicans who have any clear sense of what they want. >> republicans should look forward to a 2014 wipeout. >> bottom line, would raising taxes on the wealthiest americans have a chilling effect on hiring in this country? >> no. >> the republican party has not developed an alternative idea set other than what mitt romney and paul ryan were campaigning on. ♪ america, america >> are we going to continue to making our case? >> i will say this, i can never, ever find my car in a garage. ♪ i'm going off the rails on a crazy train ♪

♪ i'm going off the rails on a crazy train ♪ >> with frantic and frenetic behind-the-scenes negotiations as both sides work against the clock trying to reach an agreement on the fiscal cliff that is fast approaching. the president is trying to ramp up public pressure on congress to accept his ideas for debt reduction in. in the coming days he meets with small business owners, middle class taxpayers, around corporate leaders. friday he tried to recapture his winning spirit in pennsylvania touring a toy manufacturing plant. i don't think the event is in whoville but the republicans as grinch playbook is probably evident enough. to hear some of the president's team, they see this christmas going their way. >> i think we're going to get this done. i'm more positive than most.

i'm heartened by many ever my senate republican colleagues who have stepped forward and basically said that their real oath is to america and not to a washington loppiest named grover norquist. >> it's actually true. some republicans have signaled a willingness to buck grover norquist and his anti-tax pledge and raise some new revenue. "the wall street journal" weighed in with a reasonable argument. president obama's re-election means the taxes for upper income earners are going up one way or another. speaker john boehner deserves some leeway to try to mitigate the damage by negotiating a larger tax reform. leeway to negotiate sounds pretty sane to me. for some, of course, that's a great big lump of coal wrapped up as an early christmas present. >> revenue that happens to be the democratic code word for tax increases. that is simply not an acceptable position for any true conservative. republicans were not elected to rubber stamp obama's agenda.

>> seems some news personalities may be taking a tax increase on the highest earners somewhat personally. anyway, republicans didn't win the white house or the senate. i wonder what other conservatives have to say about that. >> the republicans are in a shocking amount of disarray right now. the republican party has not developed an alternative idea set other than what mitt romney and paul ryan were campaigning on and sort of by default it has become their opening negotiation position. >> i see. so their opening position is the one that was vigorously debated and comprehensively defeated just three weeks ago. i guess the only question now is, who will play naughty and who will play nice? let's get in our panel now. in a special new york appearance, msnbc political analyst david corn, author of too many books to mention. and in philadelphia, lehigh university professor james peterson. david, if i can start with you, as we approach the final tally, it appears that mitt romney will indeed receive 47% of the

national vote. he is mr. 47%, and some republicans are saying that the president should start his negotiations with mitt romney's policies. does that make sense to you? >> well, no. one thing that i think was refreshing about the election that we just went through, all of us in this country, was it was one of the most ideological policy driven elections in a number of years. the president very clearly made his case for raising taxes in fairness and using money to invest in infrastructure, innovation, education while paying down the debt. mitt romney and paul ryan -- don't forget paul ryan is still out there lurking about somewhere. >> speaker boehner says he will be involved in the discussions with the president. >> and they made a very strong ideological case on their side that you got to, you know, lower tax rates for all, don't worry as much about the deficit, the revenues will come in, and we have to get rid of the social safety net the way it's been, and cut spending, slash spending dramatically. it was very divided policywise

and barack obama won pretty handily. >> a week after the election john boehner, speaker boehner, does a press statement and he says we're not going to raise revenues. we should look at loopholes and deductions. >> one thing that hasn't changed and you can put on as many senate republicans as you want looking reasonable. what hasn't changed is the tea party caucus in the house. they've lost a few members, but they're still a majority and john boehner has to find some way to get something past them. that's why i doubt there will be a christmastime deal. i think the president is going to have to let these tax cuts end and then boehner may have a chance of convincing them to pass tax cuts for the bottom 98% without the top 2%. >> do you agree with that, dr. peterson? that the president will be forced to allow these to run their course simply so that republicans in the house won't have to face the wroth, or the wrath as you like to say, of grover norquist? >> i think it's a distinct possibility and it's more about forcing republicans in the house

to face the wrath of the american people when the president puts on the table he wants to cut taxes for 98% of americans after we sort of go over the fiscal cliff or the fiscal slope. and this is a really interesting thing though, martin, and i think progressives have it right here, which is when we're talking about this grand bargain or we're talking about cuts in tax cuts and revenue, we need to talk about what these things mean. when we're talking about getting more revenue through tax cuts, we're asking the top 2% of people in america who can afford to do so to pay a little more in taxes. but when you start talking about some kind of grand bargain where you're cutting medicare and medicaid, we're talking about people's lives and health care. this is part of the reason why the president doesn't want social security to be part of it. why folk on the left are still angry that something like medicare or medicaid are sort of used as false equivalencies with tax increases. we have to think about people's real lives and health care really addresses those issues versus wealthy folk paying a little more.

>> david, if that's the case, if professor peterson is right, why then did the president when he was in the process of negotiating a grand bargain with speaker boehner, agree to suggest or even imply that, for example, the age of qualification for certain of these entitlements would go up? >> the president has decided that the way to deal with this overall, i'm not saying this is right or wrong, is that we have divided government which means we're going to try to take care of the deficit and the tax cut and also the debt ceiling issue all at once. he tried to do that two summers ago and came close and he felt you had to give up something in terms of -- not social security as much as on medicare and medicaid which do have some fiscal challenges in the next 12 years. now, if you talk to people around the president, they all say, listen, it's better if we take care of this and we fix it than if 4, 8, 12 years from now you have a republican in the white house and a republican congress and they get rid of these programs and eviscerate them. they're looking at a long-term plan and it is something that's going to make some progressives

mad and it's going to depend on what the details are and i think dr. peterson is right here that you don't have a false equivalence but sometimes to get a deal through you have to yield a little bit. the question is how much. >> the president has been talking about that compromise. dr. peterson, while the president met with small business owners today, speaker boehner got a visit from some nude protesters decrying budget cuts to aids funding. so i guess the negotiations are quite lively, are they not? >> they are. and these protesters are raising the real issues of humanity that we -- we need to have more humanity in these discourses. i'll concede the point that it's not a false equivalency but the way we are talking about the fiscal cliff is we're not acknowledging what our priorities need to be. so, for instance, if we cut military spending the way the fiscal cliff will, that is not quite as detrimental as eradicating or irrevocably changing medicare and medicaid. they're just not equal -- >> and i think, professor

peterson, all of us agree when people talk about medicare and social security, they do it with a callousness which is unconscionable and that's what you're talking about. >> yes. >> okay. well, we've heard some optimism that republicans, as we were saying earlier, are about to divorce grover norquist. take a listen to senator chuck schumer this afternoon. here he is. >> republicans are saying they want a divorce from grover norquist, but with each new republican disavowing grover norquist, the chances of a deal rises sharply. >> david, you're a historian of these things. is the ring actually going to come off or are these just impure thoughts that grover has said some republicans are having? >> i think grover norquist is probably one of the happiest guys in washington this week. it seems as if he is the big 800-pound gorilla who dictates policy. i have to bleach that t-- beliee that the 80 or so tea party

members of the caucus, they don't give a damn about grover norquist. what they worry about is what happens in their own gerrymander districts where they have to worry about primary challenges and the like. you know, breaking a pledge is not a big deal for any politician, we all know that. what really matters, all politics being local s whether you got these extreme diehard tea party republicans who feel they can be true to whatever they want to be true to and get re-elected by following boehner towards a deal. i still question whether there are enough tea party republicans who will make that calculation. grover norquist being not a part of this at all. >> professor peterson? >> the republicans here have got to make the case to their constituencies that raising taxes on the 2% is not somehow indicting or challenging or messing with the economies of most of their base. i mean, we've got to disassociate the lobbyists and different wealthy interests that support and fund someone like grover norquist and which kind

of the money and politics theme we always talk about here. we've got to -- the republicans have got to divorce that from their actual constituency. those folks in the red state who actually use a lot of federal support to exist and subsist. and the republicans have got to articulate that message to their constituents. otherwise, they're still going to have monied interests dominating the platform of their party. >> professor james peterson, david corn, thank you both. next, john mccain continues his crusade for the truth about what happened on the sunday talk shows. stay with us on this snowy afternoon. >> so you were wrong about libya. >> i don't think i was wrong about libya at all. >> yes, i do. i know you were. >> no, i was not. >> i snknow you were. anncr: some politicians seem to think medicare and... social security are just numbers in a budget.

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two republican senators behind the benghazi witch hunt are now vowing to place a hold on any attempt to nominate susan rice as secretary of state. they and john mccain tell reporters their questions about benghazi have gone unanswered. they say ambassador rice didn't answer them in their meeting with her this morning. and apparently neither did david petraeus in his closed door testimony more than a week ago. nor other administration officials in their testimony a week prior to that. mind you, senator mccain and others skipped that because it was in conflict with their benghazi media schedule. regardless, they have now had the opportunity to meet practically every major actor in this ginned up controversy, but it doesn't matter because this is all they had to say just a short time ago.

>> significantly troubled by many of the answers that we got and some that we didn't get. >> bottom line, i'm more disturbed now than i was before. i'm more convinced than ever that it was bad, it was unjustified. >> joining us now is goldie taylor, an msnbc contributor and author, and dana mill barbankmi columni isist for "the washingt post." who else do republicans need to hear from because we're running out of names or are they expecting a christmas transfiguration and the voice of elijah? >> well, i suppose we're headed in that direction. look, martin, i have writ been thi -- written about this. there are many legitimate reasons to object to susan rice being the next secretary of state. remember response to the

benghazi situation is not one of them. she was doing what was expected of her as a spokesman for the administration. one suspects that senators graham and mccain and ayotte have other reasons for opposing her and are using this as an excuse but it's fairly flimsy because while there are legitimate questions to be asked about what happened in benghazi -- >> but dana, hang on a second. if you have a problem with susan rice, let her be nominated, challenge her, and go through due process. why do this on the basis of intelligence that she had received that's consistent with the information that she was given by the cia? >> not only is it illogical, it is counterproductive because they're putting the president in a position of saying he's going to nominate her if he wasn't before because now he's not going to look like he's caving in or backing down. so they're going to achieve the exact opposite of what they're purporting to want. >> absolutely astonishing. goldie, conservatives, as we know, are attacking ambassador rice for admitting that the initial intelligence was wrong in one respect, that there was

no process in benghazi, but she's admitted that the intelligence has evolved. so why is that so hard for them to accept? or is it because this is a proxy war against the president and they'll use anyone they can find? >> you know, it is a proxy war, but i have got to tell you that john mccain went live and said that if susan rice came to him and said she was wrong about that assertion, then he would be satisfied. well, in fact, she did say that today. she said it in a private meeting with him, with ayotte, and senator graham, that she was wrong in that assertion but that was the information she was given by the intelligence community. she, you know, put out an olive branch, if you will, and they simply broke it into three pieces and collectively flogged her with it. you know, i have great respect for my colleague dana mill barng, but he wrote in a column in mid-november that she was unfit or not well equipped for

this job, and one of the reasons that he put forth was her answers in those talk shows on sunday mornings. and so i think that the issue for us here today isn't what she said in those talk shows but how she's acquitted herself over the course of her career. stanford, oxford, rhodes scholar. if i'm in the position of having an equipped, educated, and have the experience to do this job but then called unqualified, called unequipped because maybe i seem like a bull in the china shop for stating a strategic position for which i believe is strongly right, then for some reason then i'm i will equipped for the job. it's as if they're calling, you know, secretary rice -- u.n. ambassador rice, i'm sorry, some kind of angry black woman. well, i have been in that position before and it's simply untenable. it's the kind of language we don't want to see imbued in this conversation. it really ought to be about the facts of the matter of what happened in benghazi, when that information came out, how well

it is communicated to the american public, and when it should be, i should say, communicated to the american public because they're for good reason we aren't privy to classified information, but if she had gone on air and broken with the intelligence community and released classified information, if she had broken with them, then she would be frog marched out of the bounds of d.c. today. >> yes. dana, you have just been thrashed, so i have to give you an opportunity to respond. >> yeah. i'm a little surprised because what i wrote in the column was exactly what i said to you just now, there are plenty of reasons to object to her being made secretary of state but benghazi not being one of them. so i think she's got the facts a little bit wrong there. if she's to be criticized for something in her performance on the sunday shows, it was that she was following one of the libyan officials who said, oh, yes, we think it's terrorism. she didn't take that nuance into

account. is that a reason to reject her nomination as secretary of sate? no. let's set that issue aside and focus on other things. >> goldie and dana, thank you both for joining us. >> thanks for having me. >> next, red, white, and true. we welcome one of congress' most colorful members back to the house. stay with us. stay with us. it's time for the your business entrepreneur of the week. christine osborne wants you to shop small. the owner of wonder works, a charleston, south carolina-based toy store, believes in cooperation instead of competition. she has a section dedicated to locally made products to make sure that her customers' dollars stay local. for more, watch "your business" sunday mornings at 7:30 on msnbc. two years ago, the people of bp made a commitment to the gulf.

bp has paid over twenty-three billion dollars to help those affected and to cover cleanup costs. today, the beaches and gulf are open, and many areas are reporting their best tourism seasons in years. and bp's also committed to america. we support nearly 250,000 jobs and invest more here than anywhere else. we're working to fuel america for generations to come. our commitment has never been stronger.

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open enrollment ends december 7th. so now's the time. visit medicare.gov or call 1-800-medicare. constipated? yeah. mm. some laxatives like dulcolax can cause cramps. but phillips' caplets don't. they have magnesium. for effective relief of occasional constipation. thanks. [ phillips' lady ] live the regular life. phillips'. congress returned to work today after a grueling and extended thanksgiving vacation, and to mark this solemn event, we're introducing a new series on the nation's top lawmakers. we're calling it "red, white, and true." and today we focus on the magnificent republican representative of tennessee, dr. scott -- >> i'm the conservative pro-life republican doctor, scott

desjesrlais. >> as a conservative pro-life republican doctor, the congressman rode the tea party wave to washington just two years ago. but things have gotten a little tricky since then. you see, in divorce proceedings released after election day, this severely conservative pro-life republican doctor admitted to having sexual relationships with multiple women, including two of his patients, three of his co-workers, and even one representative of a drug company. if that wasn't enough, and despite his 100% pro-life voting record, the good doctor actually encouraged one of his mistresses, who was also one of his patients, to have an abortion. that was on top of supporting his ex-wife's decision to have two terminations of her own. rough medicine, indeed. of course, these revelations didn't stop him from winning a new term in congress. but he isn't out of the woods quite yet. a watch dog group has filed a

congressional ethics complaint against him accusing dr. d of not telling the truth about his relationships with patients and the narcotic painkillers that he prescribed to at least one of his patient paramours. in response, the congressman's office told us the complaint is, quote, a publicity stunt from the far left. all in all, it's a pretty heavy load of baggage the congressman carries with him back to capitol hill today. but don't worry, the congressman says he's eager to do the people's business. and let's hope that at east while he's in washington, he keeps his business separate from his pleasures. stay with us. the day's "top lines" are coming up. ♪

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from good fellows and blad friday to the so-called war on christmas. here are today's "top lines."

i amuse you? >> it would have a great affect in terms of the morality. >> they've installed the world's first caviar vending machine. it's part of an initiative to cheer up mitt romney. >> guys like me end up paying a ray below what is paid by the people in my office. >> ray is going to be on. >> they may fold under questioning. joots important that the republicans don't have their fingerprints all over the murder weapon. >> jimmy had never asked me to whack somebody before. >> everybody who signed the pledge, including peter king, i hope his wife understands commitments last a little longer than two years. >> i have to admit the 2r50u9, it turned me on. >> will you want to exact punishment on them in two years. >> you told them nothing, they got nothing. >> we can ask president bush how his second term went. >> thanksgiving is a preamble to the holiest day of the year.

how much you're going to buy, what deal you're going to get. >> we have riots, fights. >> i guess it's better than the 50 million americans on foot stamps. the most dangerous place in the country was oat a victoria's secret. >> what happened to trampling people for the love of the game. >> they're miserable so they want you to be miserable. >> the very intelligent people who work at foss nex news. >> the worst is getting a rental car and having no idea what car is yours. >> that's a game changer. >> we're in a death spa with hispanic voters. >> the answer is self-deportation. people decide they can do better by going home. >> candidate romney, he dug the hole deeper. >> let's get to our panel now. ari melber is with me here in new york. he's a correspondent of "the nation." msnbc political analyst karen finney is former communications

director at thed nc and professor michael eric dyson of georgetown university joins us. karen, the bloviating irnor ray muss may be changing his stripes. donald trump recently sat down for an interview and i can inform you he says republicans are going to have a hard time winning elections if they come across as, get this, mean-spirited toward people of color. treating voters with respect may seem as obvious to you and i as night follows day, but at least it's a start, isn't it? >> i suppose it's a start. >> give the man some credit. >> why should -- this guy is supposed to be so smard and we should give him credit for stating the obvious? i don't think so. i think i'm going to continue to believe he's a bloviating ignoramus we shouldn't be paying any attention to. >> ari, as we come on air now for this segment, the president

is actually meeting at this very moment for a photo opportunity with the president-elect of mexico. and mr. trump in the same article describes mitt romney's immigration policy of self-deportation as, quote, crazy and maniarchial. does this suggest the white house is ready to do something substantive on immigration? >> i think so, yes. to take the two pieces of your question, on trump there is a delicious irony because he is a hater, and he's saying we as a party should hate less and the first thing republicans must do is banish the haters like him from the leadership and the message apparatus. >> karen wasn't really convinced by that. >> sorry. >> i think we can give karen more credit than that. that's first thing. it's fine if he wants to give this message. as you said, it's obvious -- there's a lot of riff people who

say things in the country. this guy was embraced by mitt romney for fund-raisers, for messaging, and they were even at one time talking about going to a debate sponsored by him. he was a kingmaker and they need to boot him out. that's number one. the dream act had a majority of support in both houses of congress. now we see with the new president in mexico and a lot of talk about issues on immigration and the drug war, this is the time for action, and the key is not getting a majority. the majority is in congress. the key is getting the republicans to stop filibustering immigration reform. >> speaking of the war on drugs, professor, this also may be on the agenda at the white house and this most recent election saw two states vote to legalize marijuana. that raised a lot of eyebrows in mexico where police are battling drug traffickers or as one vendor told the dallas morning news, we've lost too many people, and americans want to

legalize pot? what are we dying for? that's a fair question, isn't it, professor dyson? >> it is a fair question. but the reality is the war on drugs as prosecuted in america has been a war on black and brown people. the war on drugs has not been to eradicate the basis of the war on drugs -- the basis of drug addiction which is the infusion in america, the infill ration tration of our borders with illicit drugs. it's been to crack down on those people who use a bit of marijuana and the like in order to relieve the misery of the public policies that, you know, conservatives and right wingers have put into play. that's a cheap shot but i thought i'd take it. the reality -- >> you certainly took it, sir. >> yes, sir. donald trump is too rich for me to give him any credit. he's got all the credit he needs. but the reality is this. the war on drugs has been deal tierous and destructive for african-american and latino

people in this country. what we must do immediately is to figure out way that is are sane and reasonable to address those who are addicted on the one hand so you have to have medical intervention, and on the other hand, you have to have some serious laws geared at breaking down those who truly supplied the drugs and who maintain multibillion dollar bases of drugs in this world. that's what you've got to do. >> okay. karen, from the war on drugs now to the war on voting rights, we saw an interesting story in the palm beach post. apparently there are now at least some republican officials who are admitting that the state law which led to all those long lines was really intended to drive down the turnout among democrats. i'm not sure we can cope with this new found honesty among republicans, can we? >> no. i mean, what, are you suggesting they were engaging in voter suppression, martin? is that what you're trying to tell me? >> it seems that's what the palm

beach post has discovered. >> that's not what it's about. it's all about voter fraud. they were just trying to protect the validity of the election. >> but there was no voter fraud. >> i feel this is another statement of the obvious. you don't do the kinds of things we saw not just in florida but a number of states that just happened to be states where we saw the highest amount of growth in african-american and the latino populations, a, and, b, many of the laws and many of the rule changes were very much i think as this piece points out targeted to the kinds of things that they know benefit democratic turnout like early voting, voting on sundays, expanding voting hours. that obviously impacts low income people and black and brown people, democratic voters the most. quickly what i would say is overall i think we need a whole new conversation on protecting our constitutional right to vote. it cannot be about do you have the right i.d. or not. it has to be about how do we make sure -- if we're going to make sure everybody gets to boi

a gun, let's make sure everybody gets to vote. >> ari, to that point the president won florida so what's the problem? >> that is the way, unfortunately, the way a lot of she's issues play out. throughout american history democracy here has not only been about who to vote for, it's been about who gets to vote. this is an important turning point. i'm a lawyer and i can tell you, three a lot of bad things that are legal. it's bad to lie. it's not illegal. it's bad to commit adultery but it's usually not illegal. it's bad to make it hard to vote, but that is allowed. what is not allowed under the supreme court precedent from 2009 is to make it hard to vote for the purposes of winning an election or discriminating on the basis of race. those are the two big red lines or obvious reasons. so when people say, well, maybe voter fraud is not a big deal and it's going to be a little harder, the supreme court, whether you like it or not, basically said that is allowed. but when you go in and you say this was to help a political party win or worse, as the

article that i'm so glad you're highlighting reports, you have republicans basically conceding this was also to disenfranchise people on the basis of their skin color, that's unconstitution even under a conservative precedent in the supreme court. >> and it's criminal. ari melber, karen finney, and professor michael eric die sorn. stay with us. who better than someone who testified in front of congress to sway congress on the fiscal cliff? stay with us. [ female announcer ] a classic meatloaf recipe from stouffer's starts with ground beef, unions, and peppers baked in a ketchup glaze with savory gravy and mashed russet potatoes. what makes stouffer's meatloaf best of all? that moment you enjoy it at home. stouffer's. let's fix dinner. ari melber, karen finney, and

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don't wait. call now. wanted to provide better employee benefits while balancing the company's bottom line, their very first word was... [ to the tune of "lullaby and good night" ] ♪ af-lac ♪ aflac [ male announcer ] find out more at... [ duck ] aflac! [ male announcer ] ...forbusiness.com. [ yawning sound ] goldman sachs chief executive lloyd blank fifein wi meet with john boehner to offer his it uppance worth on how to resolve the budget deficit. you will recall just a few years back, mr. blankfein went begging for billions to bail out his

bank. now he's heading back to capitol hill to repay his debt to the american people, and he's doing it by calling for drastic cuts to medicare, medicaid, and social security. we're back with our panel, ari melber, karen finney, and professor michael eric dyson. professor, can you help me with this because i'm a simple soldier. four years ago wall street nearly destroys the economy. this led to big budget deficits. now one of wall street's biggest figures, mr. blankfein, is going to washington to help lawmakers reduce the budget deficit and his solution so to cut perhaps for the poor and middle class. have i got that right? >> you got it right. we ought to blank him out on his blank behind. the reality is this, that this man is representative of the inability of the upper strata of america to understand what goes on with the rest of the world. you are a recipient of corporate welfare. you are a recipient of government largess. you are a recipient of the will

of the people to right its financial institutions to such a degree that you were deemed too big to fail, too large to fail, and yet you turn around and boomerang justice and throw back at us the willful disregard and oblivion to the plight and predick pt of everyday normal people, medicare and medicaid. you are going to congress to make an argument in behalf of protecting the billionaires in this country and the rich people against the masses of people who bailed you out. i think this is the height of unpatriotic fervor and we ought to call it for what it is. this is un-american. >> karen, it's not just mr. blankfein and his ilk wish to cut social security, the group he's working with, a consortium of budget cutting ceos, are also looking for cuts to corporate income tax. this is brilliant, isn't it? >> apparently all the shell games they are already engaging

in is not enough. they need a little more, martin. i think we should hear them out. you know, it's been a tough time sitting on all these millions and billions -- >> blankfein only got $15 billion for his bank. that's not very much. >> you know, one of the things i think is so important in this conversation, i think the president is very focused on it, whatever we do, and i think he's very clear in terms of not -- looking at rates and revenue and sort of what is on the table and what's not on the table, social security is not on the table, i think one of the president's chief concerns is we have to take a wholistic approach. mr. blankfein does not have the burden of having to do that. a lot of the kinds of changes he's talking about are the kinds of things that would only deepen the economic inequality that we're trying to dig ourselves out of at this point in time. >> but that doesn't matter to him. it's all about the deficit. he's not interested in people's suffering. he's interested in the deficit. that's where his focus is. >> that's exactly right. and he's not interested in the argument that perhaps for a stronger economy we need to care about the middle class and if we keep chopping them off at the

knees, there's not going to be anybody to buy the products from the companies they're investing in. >> ari, we know the president when he was in the midst of that negotiation of a grand bargain with speaker boehner, he contemplated the prospect of raising the age at which it would trigger entitlements, particularly for social security. do you think this time around he'll do the same or do you think progressives will hold him to account on that and say no, no way? >> i'm concerned about it, and i think the problem is the red lines on the left side of this debate are not as clear as the ones on the right. you know, everyone spent a lot of time worrying about whether grover norquist is happy. but the fact of the political ecology in washington is there is not a prominent singular liberal grover holding up the same priorities that you and the guests have rightfully just outlined. and if we take a step back and look at where our country is at, if we look at this as a policy

making process, the median income is at the lowest rate since 19 69. the upper 1% and upper upper brackets have more concentrated wealth than at any other point in our history. so i don't think the starting point should be the bush tax cuts, okay? i don't think the starting point should be what worked in the '70s. i think the starting point is that when you look at whether people have the ability, the raw ability after paying their basic monthly expenses to save for the end of life, to save for a time after they work, it's a bigger challenge now than it's been before. so that is where we have to start. not with what bush worked out during a period when, by the way, bush grew the deficit more than other administrations. >> indeed. ari melber, karen finney, professor michael eric dyson, two segments not enough. how the ro grprove aggressi

caucus feels about the looming fiscal cliff.

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having spent their political lives worshipping at the throne of grover norquist, some republicans have now lost faith in their promise to never raise taxes. at the same time democrats are being urged to protect those programs that help the poorest and the weakest among us. even as the president seeks to reach a deal with speaker john boehner. congressman jim moran, who is a democrat from virginia and a member of the progressive caucus joins us now. good afternoon, sir. >> nice to be with you again. >> you've called this fiscal crisis totally artificial, your words, but isn't this fundamentally about how we perceive the future? republicans say the only thing that matters is reducing the deficit whereas you maintain that investment in people and infrastructure is just as important to secure the future. is that not right?

>> well, i hate to waste this nation's resources. the greatest waste is our human potential. the millions of people who are unemployed or underemployed, the millions of students who are not getting a decent education. all the opportunities that are not going to be developed through research and innovation, whether it be in technology or at the national institutes of health. this is a very wealthy nation, not just monetarily, but in terms of the resources, particularly the human resources, that we can apply to meeting the problems of the world and making ourselves more prosperous. and the fact is we're going to lose those resources because the only way to tap them is a good public education system. good physical infrastructure, world class innovation. the kind of investment in ren research and development that

developed the internet. those were government investments and the fact is we're talking about eliminating them across the board. it's called nondefense domestic discretionary programs. but that really is the seed corn that enables this country to fulfill its potential, and that's probably what is most at stake. it's certainly those constituents don't have a seat at this table. you know, defense does, rightfully so. the wealthy do. even to some extent, you know, social security and medicare. >> right. >> but it's these nondefense domestic programs that i am afraid are most likely to be cut, and i think this country should be fighting for those because that's the way we untap our national potential. >> in a sign of increasing annoyance, grover norquist attempted to cast a slur upon new york congressman peter king for suggesting that he may rescind his no tax promise. take a listen, sir. >> everybody who signed the

pledge, including peter king who tried to weasel out of it, shame on him as the new york sun said today, i hope his wife understands that commitments last a little longer than two years or something. >> so, mr. moran, air cording to mr. norquist, if peter king changes his mind in order to help the very people you just described that will thereby help the american economy, then he's more likely to commit adultery? is that what he's saying? >> his wife should be far more ashamed of peter if he were to let himself be bullied by this guy grover. i mean, grover seems to be a mild-tempered guy but he employs these bullying intimidation tactics. the republican party should say, look, i'm bigging than that, i answer to my quaeconstituents. who are you to tell me how i can best served the needs of this country. grover norquist couldn't get elected to anything, dog catcher even. yet he's out there intimidating

all these folks that some of whom really want to do the right thing and now is the time when they have to do the right thing, when they have to be patriots and that's what this is about. are you going to put the interests of your country and your constituents above special interests that grover norquist has and the threat that he holds of pouring millions of dollars into your campaign? if that's the only way you're going to get re-elected, then darn it, it's not worth it, and i think a lot of republicans are coming to that conclusion. >> there are some encouraging signs. here is democratic senator dick durbin today speaking about the possibility of a deal on the fiscal cliff. take a listen. >> pick up any of the hill newspapers and look for the full-page ads. basically saying to the left, keep your hands off the entitlements and to the right, keep your hands off of taxes. well, if both sides heed those warnings, nothing will happen. >> congressman, he's right, isn't he? >> of course he's right.

and, you know, we have this new book about thomas jefferson and this new movie about abraham lincoln and that great robert carroll book about lyndon johnson. these were people whose greatness came from understanding that the art -- that compromise is the art of politics. that sometimes you have to get your hands dirty. you have to take things into your own hands in terms of negotiating, making deals, compromising things that you know have to be done for the greater good. the greater good is to put this country onto a path of stable financial security. this can be done, but we have to be willing to negotiate, to compromise, and to put aside the people like grover norquist and be able to tell our constituents, look, i acted in the greater good. i acted in what i knew had to be done for the long-term best interests of this country and its children and my grandchildren, and that i think

is what ultimately what's going to be done, but right now grover norquist is a marginal player. thanks for inviting me tonight, martin. >> congressman jim moran from virginia. thank you so much. >> you bet. >> we'll be right back. now we need a little bit more... [ male announcer ] at humana, we understand the value of quality time and personal attention. which is why we are proud to partner with health care professionals who understand the difference that quality time with our members can make... that's a very nice cake! ohh! [ giggles ] [ male announcer ] humana thanks the physicians, nurses, hospitals, pharmacists and other health professionals who helped us achieve the highest average star rating among national medicare companies... and become the first and only national medicare advantage company to achieve a 5-star rating for a medicare plan... your efforts result in the quality of care and service we're able to provide... which means better health outcomes...

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